tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5172262440097026325.post8076302773049302888..comments2023-10-10T09:46:13.447-07:00Comments on Exploring Classical Chinese 文言文: A Japanese Death Poem in ChineseUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5172262440097026325.post-42850829834456259092013-02-05T15:50:13.237-08:002013-02-05T15:50:13.237-08:00Ken,
That settles the question! Thank you!
Ken,<br /><br />That settles the question! Thank you!<br /><br />Jeffrey Kotykhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11466850119342584826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5172262440097026325.post-89640799654196222192013-02-05T08:03:48.561-08:002013-02-05T08:03:48.561-08:00《一切經音義》卷9:「向(許亮反)」(CBETA, T54, no. 2128, p. 357, a...《一切經音義》卷9:「向(許亮反)」(CBETA, T54, no. 2128, p. 357, a2)<br />《一切經音義》卷6:「命(下明柄反)」(CBETA, T54, no. 2128, p. 340, b15)<br /><br />《一切經音義》 was composed by the scholar monk 玄應 in Tang Dynasty 唐朝.<br /><br />It is clear that 「向、亮」 and 「命、柄」 belong to different segment of rhythms.台語與佛典https://www.blogger.com/profile/03844522911240490957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5172262440097026325.post-87199167278208391102013-02-01T14:31:53.310-08:002013-02-01T14:31:53.310-08:00I don't have enough personal knowledge of the ...I don't have enough personal knowledge of the rhyming system to be sure, but I have heard it pointed out that this poem "doesn't rhyme" before, and for example Eguchi says: "韻字は命と向であるが韻をふんでいない。" Eguchi doesn't mention the problem of tones, and again that's not my field, but I'm pretty sure I've heard it as a criticism (in the technical sense) of this poem before. The general consensus IIRC is that Otsu (or whoever wrote this poem) was familiar enough with written Chinese but less so with how it was actually spoken -- in China, at least. (The 命/向 issue may be indeed have arisen because they do/did "rhyme" adequately in Japanese, as you say.)<br /><br />It's actually an interesting idea of the power of (written) Chinese at the time, and specifically 訓読 -- here we have a poem that would apparently have been rejected and presumably forgotten by a Chinese audience, but it was added to an important collection and continues to be praised by readers whose relationship to Chinese is/was mediated through the characters rather than the spoken language.Matt Treyvaudhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10620558581996112564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5172262440097026325.post-30594717910321295992013-02-01T07:47:58.246-08:002013-02-01T07:47:58.246-08:00Hi Matt,
Are you sure 向 and 命 do not rhyme, or at...Hi Matt,<br /><br />Are you sure 向 and 命 do not rhyme, or at least not at the time when this was written? Myō / mei and kō / kyō are the readings as we have them recorded. I'm curious if contemporary scholars recognize this universally as lacking rhyme? Looking at the readings I thought there might have been a rhyme there, but it seems I might have been mistaken.Jeffrey Kotykhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11466850119342584826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5172262440097026325.post-30771330561213021562013-02-01T07:19:17.716-08:002013-02-01T07:19:17.716-08:00This is definitely to be understood as a poem in t...This is definitely to be understood as a poem in the Chinese style; the Kaifuso is as Jeffrey says a book of such poems! However, Ken is quite correct in that it does not fit the required structure (向 and 命 do not rhyme). This shouldn't be very astonishing, though; Chinese was not Prince Otsu's native language, after all. Anyway, this is a known issue with the poem, but it's still considered very fine in the context of early Sino-Japanese literature.<br /><br />Incidentally, my edition of the Kaifuso (ed. Eguchi Takao) points out that there is a similar poem attributed to Otsu in the Man'yoshu , #416:<br /><br />大津皇子被死之時磐余池陂流涕御作歌一首<br />百傳 磐余池尓 鳴鴨乎 今日耳見哉 雲隠去牟<br />momodutapu/ ipare no ike ni/ naku kamo wo/ kyepu nomwi mite ya/ kumogakurinamu<br /><br />A poem composed by Prince Otsu as he wept at Iware Pond after being sentenced to death<br />"On many-storied Iware Pond do the ducks cry; shall I see them only today and then pass on?"<br /><br />"Many-storied" (momodutapu) is a "makura-kotoba" (set epithet) for Iware; "cry" (naku) refers to both animals making noises and usual and people weeping.<br /><br />However, it is extremely unlikely that Prince Otsu actually wrote this poem, because "kumogakuru" was a verb used to indicate respect for a superior; it would be inappropriate to use it for your <em>own</em> death. So this poem must have been written from his POV by someone sympathetic to him (or at least someone who found the story moving).<br /><br />Interesting blog! I shall return!Matt Treyvaudhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10620558581996112564noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5172262440097026325.post-75944250196733808762013-01-28T04:51:55.588-08:002013-01-28T04:51:55.588-08:00《一切經音義》卷9:「向(許亮反)」(CBETA, T54, no. 2128, p. 357, a...《一切經音義》卷9:「向(許亮反)」(CBETA, T54, no. 2128, p. 357, a2)<br />向 is pronounced as Siang (or to be written as Xiang in China)台語與佛典https://www.blogger.com/profile/03844522911240490957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5172262440097026325.post-85209882443572937012013-01-28T04:48:26.926-08:002013-01-28T04:48:26.926-08:00Dear Jeffrey,
No, I do not think so.
馬毛朋,(2009)...Dear Jeffrey,<br /> No, I do not think so.<br />馬毛朋,(2009) ,〈「《詩經》是押韻的」是從未得到證明的假說嗎?---與李書嫻、麥耘商榷〉,《中國語言學》第三輯),北京大學出版社,北京市,中國。<br /><br />馬毛朋 is a professor of Pei-jing University 北京大學, China. He claimed in this article (dated 2009) that 「《詩經》是押韻的」 ( Shi-Jing is definitely with rhythms.)<br />That is to say, it would fail to be qualified as a 'verse' in ancient China (from BC 500 to AD 1900) without the rhythms (we may call this rhythms 'homoioteleuton').<br />And, this verse do not follow a rhythms.<br />For 命, pronounced as 'ming'("眉病"反) and 向 <br />(《一切經音義》卷9:「向(許亮」(CBETA, T54, no. 2128, p. 357, a2))<br />It does not fit the rhythms of 'homoioteleuton'.<br />Maybe, it is simply an ancient Japanese way to write a four five-worded sentences, The writer did not intend to fit his writing into a style of Chinese verse.<br />Furthermore, if you go to check all the verses in 唐詩三百首 (Tang-shi-san-bai-sou), you do not have any chance to find a verse without the rhythms.台語與佛典https://www.blogger.com/profile/03844522911240490957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5172262440097026325.post-46735221431311913622013-01-28T02:49:47.727-08:002013-01-28T02:49:47.727-08:00Hi Ken!
I think this is a 古絶, not a 律絶, so it doe...Hi Ken!<br /><br />I think this is a 古絶, not a 律絶, so it does not have to rhyme. Is that correct?Jeffrey Kotykhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11466850119342584826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5172262440097026325.post-21203116526979521152013-01-28T02:44:14.088-08:002013-01-28T02:44:14.088-08:00About this post, it is a strict rule that it can n...About this post, it is a strict rule that it can not be ended with oblique 仄 tones for all the four stanzas of the Chinese jueju 絕句.<br /><br />By the way, there is a quite high possibility that Chinese jueju 絕句 was named after An Shi-gao's translation.<br /><br />《七處三觀經》卷1:「從後說絕:<br /> 「欲見明者, 當樂聞經, <br /> 亦除垢慳, 是名為信。」」<br />(CBETA, T02, no. 150A, p. 881, c27-29)<br />台語與佛典https://www.blogger.com/profile/03844522911240490957noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5172262440097026325.post-59947139144070549542013-01-28T02:39:11.931-08:002013-01-28T02:39:11.931-08:00Hi, Jeffrey,
This is Ken Su. We met at DDM, but we...Hi, Jeffrey,<br />This is Ken Su. We met at DDM, but we do not have a real talk.<br />About this post, it is a strict rule that it can not be ended with oblique 仄 tones for the Chinese jueju 絕句.<br />It is quite clear that if the rhythms (押韻) is level 平 tone, the third stanza should be ended by a word of oblique tone.<br />And, if the rhythms (押韻) of a Chinese jueju 絕句 is oblique tone, the third stanza should be ended by a word of level tone.<br />It is quite astonished to me that this verse written by the Japanese poet did not follow this basic rule.<br /><br />You are welcome to visit my Blog.<br />http://yifertw.blogspot.tw/2012/12/blog-post_24.html <br />台語與佛典https://www.blogger.com/profile/03844522911240490957noreply@blogger.com